Reynauld's Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Topics > Digital Trains
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - DCC on MS2 - unexplained short
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

DCC on MS2 - unexplained short

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Silvano View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 05 Feb 2017
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Points: 8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silvano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: DCC on MS2 - unexplained short
    Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 7:19pm
Hello, Everyone:

I just started using my new black MS2 to run both Marklin and DCC (with a switch) on K tracks.

The DCC locos end up creating a short after about one minute or two that they are on the layout.

At first I thought it was the Roco ICE 2 train that had a problem, but now even the other DCC loco I have has started having the same problem; it's a diesel loco, BR 218.

Both locos come from a Roco starter set.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

(The Marklin side of it does not seem to be affected.)

Thank you.

Silvano
Back to Top
Silvano View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 05 Feb 2017
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Points: 8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silvano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2017 at 10:25pm
I have tried shutting off the light on the BR 218 and it worked. After a while, the loco slowed down a lot but continued running and picked up speed back to normal. It kept on running.

I  then tried turning on the cabin light and eventually the the short re-appeared - the MS2 dreaded red light came on.

I then tried again without the cabin light and it works fine.


WHY does the light make a difference????? Shocked


I tried the same thing with the Ice 2 - no luck - the loco just keeps on shorting the MS2 with or without lights on.   Cry
Back to Top
BR42 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Location: Auburn
Status: Offline
Points: 862
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BR42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 6:51am
Dear Silvano:

You say DCC locos on K-track.  Did you change the wiring of the DCC locos inside?  The two outer wheel sets have to be either completely connected and a pick-up shoe for the center has to be added, or one outside set of wheels disconnected and the pick-up show connected.  If there is some hidden internal connection like a light that connects things to the frame, and the pick-up shoe is connected to the frame too, strange things may happen.

Ulrich


Back to Top
RRVRR View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 Sep 2014
Location: Greer, SC
Status: Offline
Points: 376
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RRVRR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 9:21am
Well of course they would like be able so sell on control station that can be used for everything imaginable. The reality might tell a different story. The new Maerklin CS3 (same as for the MS2) sends there MM signal as well as DCC to the rails but this doesn't mean you can now run all available Locomotives on the same track.

First, in order for this to work I assume the K-Track has the two rails insulated from each other and also the third rail in the middle in order to be able to run regular DCC Locos without pickup show. This is the basic, without this there is no way that this will work. With a switch behind the CS3/MS2 you should be able to switch between 2 rail and 3 rail configurations. For my understanding this can not work in a mixed fashion, you have to have either DCC Locos on the track or Maerklin Locos. Older Maerklin loco will short the rails because the wheels are not insulated and I don't know if newer ones have insulated rails. Same applies for Maerklin rolling stock, so check the wheels.

Second, another main difference is the direct current (DC) and the alternating current (AC) what basically divides those worlds DCC and Maerklin from each other. This has nothing to do with the Protocol the CS3/MS2 can sent. Putting a DCC loco on a Maerklin track with a regular DCC decoder and assuming the rails are divided and no other Maerklin locomotive or rolling stock is on the same track (or section that is connected) you still have alternating current on the track. In order this will work the decoder inside the loco must be able to handle AC, what means this must be a multi protocol decoder. But why in the hell I do need a DCC signal then...it makes no sense only if there would be a setting in the CS3/MS2 to switch it completely to DCC and direct current on the rails. If this is the case you still can't mix the systems.

In order to really narrow down your problem we need more information on your DCC equipment and the wiring configuration what and how you did it. I'm not a Maerklin Specialist, my world is the DCC environment and the only way I see that Maerklin gets into the DCC market (what I really would like) would be to follow the way of ESU but this would make the brand Trix obsolete.




Edited by RRVRR - 06 Feb 2017 at 9:33am
best, Markus


Back to Top
BR42 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Location: Auburn
Status: Offline
Points: 862
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BR42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 6:23pm
Markus and Silvano,

A)   Once you switch to digital command control, there is only alternating current on the track regardless whether you use a Maerklin version or NMRA DCC; the distinction between DC and AC is history.  Also all Maerklin  digital locomotives actually have DC motors. 

The difference between Maerklin's command control and the NMRA command control is the language of the signal sent over the rail.  In dual mode, the command station sends both types of signals. If a DCC decoder receives a Maerklin signal it usually ignores it.  It definitely will not cause a short.  It may cause the loco to act strangely, e.g. accelerate without reason, have lights blinking.  Since your loco's problems are related to lights, I suspect that this is the problem.

B)  Silvano, what type of conversion work did you do to the DCC locos before you put the locos on the track?  Many Roco locos use the frame as a common ground for the lights, which can cause an indirect short whenever the lights are turned on which may trigger the short protector in a strange way.

C) Here are the conversion steps I would do to convert a Roco DC loco to run it on Maerklin K-track:

Step 1:  Identify the wires leading from the power pick ups of the wheels to the circuit board above the motor.  Solder all of them to one side.  You need to unsolder half the wires and move them over.

Step 2: Put a pick-up shoe under the loco, and connect it with a flexible wire it to one of the places from which you have just removed the wires.

These two steps will give your locos the power pick-up of a Maerklin loco.

The two tracks of K-track are not isolated.  Even if you do this, it cannot be maintained at switches.

Ulrich  

Back to Top
Silvano View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 05 Feb 2017
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Points: 8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silvano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2017 at 7:07pm
Thank you Ulrich and Markus for your feedback. Smile

I think I should tell you a bit more so you can see my frustration:

1. I did not convert any loco: Marklin stayed AC and Roco stayed as it came: DCC:

2. The K track, straights, curves and regular turnouts are capable of being used in dual mode, one at a time;

3. I did this in the past with analogue (separate transformers) and it worked well - but I had not tried to do it in digital;

4.  The black MS2 is used via a switch to power either a Marklin loco OR a digital Roco loco;

5. The Roco diesel works fine, unless I turn on the cab light - that's when the red stop light goes on in the MS2 after a couple of minutes;

6. The ROCO ICE 2 triggers the red stop light on the MS2 whether the lights are on or off within 30 seconds to one minute (no more than that);

7. The Marklin 30000 has no such problems.

8. If it makes a difference: When I use the "find" function on the MS2 to find the Roco locos, all it does it seems is find the address - 3 - for the Ice Train and 4 for the diesel. It does not actually find a specific loco as it does with Marklin.

9. The Roco locos work well in analogue and worked well with the Multimaus in digital. I no longer have the Multimaus.

10. When I tested the locos without trying to switch the input - meaning using the MS2 just as a straight DCC controller, the Ice train did exactly what it does on the layout now. The diesel loco hid this problem since I only tested it for about one minuter on each occasion.

Does anyone know FOR SURE if one CAN use an MS2 to control a Roco DCC loco instead of the Multimaus? Perhaps THIS is the problem, you cannot. Cry

Again, I do not mean a converted loco to 3 rail, just a straight DCC loco on K track.

Thanks again.

Silvano

(By the way, I am the same guy as Locomotore99, but I was not able to get a new password/username combination, so I just re-registered.)
Back to Top
RRVRR View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 Sep 2014
Location: Greer, SC
Status: Offline
Points: 376
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RRVRR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 5:58pm
OK, it worked in analogue but not in digital. It worked with the Multimaus but not with the Maerklin MS2. This tells almost the story that the "all  in one" magical controller concept from Maerklin has a flaw.

Ulrich, you are right, you can overlay a signal over each other but it is up to the decoder if he is able to distinguish the different signals. I need to dig in to the way Maerklin delivers there signals  to there decoders to make a better guess but it will stay a guess. I would not mix the Maerklin world with the DCC world for the reasons stated here. I'm also not convinced with the light theory that this causes the problem, it worked on DCC fine, without shorting out so how should it short out in dual mode on the MS2. The only logical reason for me it that the decoder doesn't like AC and for some reason the MS2 indicates this as a short and switches off the track power. That might not necessary be a fault at all.

Silvano, you can't expect that the MS2 give you all the information from a DCC Loco as it gives you from a Maerklin loco. The decoder needs to send out the info by request from the MS2 but they speak different languages. For this to happen the MS2 needs to also speak Railcom and your DCC Decoder must be a RailCom Decoder to be able to communicate back. The automatic login that Maerklin Locos do is not really a DCC feature. If you get an address back from the MS2 that there are DCC locos found is interesting, the MS2 might be broadcast a CV1 read request and naturally the DCC decoder will answer. I'm not sure this is the case here because I don't know the functionality.

Advertising is one thing, reality another - sometimes painful. This concept from MS2 might work good with new DCC decoders that are up to date on the current development but do not expect that older will work the same way. I guess there is no easy work around.

Ulrich, I'm still not convinced that the AC has nothing to do with it. Those are two different wave forms, new decoder might ignore it but depending on what Silvano has in it's DCC Locos they might have a problem with it. The distinction of AC and DC might be history for Maerklin since they use DC motors because they are easier to control with a frequency drive what a decoder actually is (at least in the DCC world). A simple rectifier on the decoder would do the trick but are you sure that the same applies for older DCC decoders? I don't know!!!

Silvano, as painful as it is, we all only can play the guessing game, I would contact Maerklin to ask a technician and he might be able to point out a solution for you. I would be interested to know the outcome of this and I hope you keep us in the loop, even we can't help you with this.



Edited by RRVRR - 07 Feb 2017 at 6:11pm
best, Markus


Back to Top
Silvano View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 05 Feb 2017
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Points: 8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silvano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 7:03pm
Thank you, Markus, I will investigate further and will be glad to share anything I find out.  Smile

Have a good evening.
Back to Top
Silvano View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 05 Feb 2017
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Points: 8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Silvano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2017 at 1:18pm
Hello, Everyone:

I wanted to report that the problem I had with the Roco Ice 2 train going kaput after a few moments running had nothing to to with the layout or the MS2. The problem was that the decoder was no longer working in digital but still works fine in analogue.

As a result, I would have had to buy a new decoder if I wanted to run the train in digital but decided instead to save the cost and buy for about the same money a Marklin Ice 2 Bord restaurant wagon to add to the Ice 2 Marklin train I also have. Having four units rather than three makes the Marklin set much more enjoyable. It really looks like a full train now. Smile

In future I may do that or add a decoder to another 2 rail loco I have.

The problem is a SOUND decoder would have been MUCH more expensive to buy and install than a regular decoder; but since the Roco Ice train still works very well in DC, I did not see the point in spending the money.

One important thing to keep in mind here is that there is no doubt that an MS2 can be used to run DCC trains, at least the Roco ones (and I think ALL of them).

In addition, my little experiment of having BOTH Marklin and DCC on the same layout with the K track and a switch, was a success. The diesel Roco loco worked fine in this set up after initial problems.

As said before, the Ice 2 train problem had disappeared once a decoder was installed on a regular DCC  layout using Walthers tracks.  I have no reason to believe it would not have worked as well on the dual experimental layout using K track.

If anybody wants to try this, please remember that not all K track is suitable for dual operation. As far as I know only the regular straight track and curves (I tried R0 and R1) and the normal turnouts, no. 22715 and 22716 that I also tried are suitable. I understand that the longer turnouts do not work because of insulation problems. Other track pieces may also not work.

One word of caution, the turnouts that do work may not be suitable for all locos/wagons.  In particular, my Roco diesel loco had a big problem with them. The turnouts themselves do not work so well as the C track turnouts. Even Marklin locos sometimes jump on some of them, but do not derail.

That is all from Toronto.

Have a good Sunday everyone. Big smile


Edited by Silvano - 12 Mar 2017 at 1:22pm
Back to Top
RRVRR View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 Sep 2014
Location: Greer, SC
Status: Offline
Points: 376
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RRVRR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2017 at 1:50pm
My question is, why you have such a mix of DC, DCC, Maerklin? The question is not that there might be ways of running it on the same track what you somehow have accomplished, the question is why you make it so complicated for your self. It would be much easier if you make a decision for you for the future to focus on one system and your problems are gone for good.

I'm not convinced that the Roco Decoder is damaged, it might be an older on used as in the BR218, who knows. It might just not work with the DCC Signal from the MS2 or something is of in the CV settings. Did you try a reset? If it is really damaged, I suspect it happend because of the MS2 use. Usually when a decoder is fried there is a short all along or no function at all. Working good in analog and not in digital is unusual.

Again, you are mixing two worlds together that are not meant to be mixed and that will always result in unexplained issues and/or damage in equipment and frustration.

If I would be in your position I would get rid of the system you have less stuff from and stick with the other one. It looks like a lot that you had some Maerklin stuff before and somebody gave you the Roco starter set. Connecting both systems together will damage on with the least protected circuits.

Also, the "jumping" on the tracks - there are different sizes of the track to the ties available. It is marked with "Code". The most commons are Code 100 and Code 83 (don't know anything about Maerklin here). That jump you talk about is on the frog of a switch. This is where the flanges of the wheels enter the frog and it lifts up the loco. That means the flanges are to long for that track you are using. But this a world on it's own. LOL


Edited by RRVRR - 12 Mar 2017 at 2:19pm
best, Markus


Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.17
Copyright ©2001-2013 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 1.422 seconds.